Gothic font 1810

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Arcobaleno
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Gothic font 1810

Viesti Kirjoittaja Arcobaleno » 10.09.2020 20:20

Hello!

I need help reading the Gothic font.
https://digi.kansalliskirjasto.fi/sanom ... ius&page=4

I only need one paragraph.
I understand that we are talking about Johan Lackman and Catharina Wallius. Also, Pielisjarwi is mentioned there.
But I don't understand what else it says...

Åbo_Allmänna_Tidning_149_18_12_1810-4-.jpg
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I will help you to read Russian text.
You don't have to pay for it. In return, I will ask you to decipher for me the text is in Swedish. I have many ancestors in Finland and I need help in reading old texts in Swedish. We can do a barter.
Contact me!

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JaskaS
Viestit: 1868
Liittynyt: 03.11.2006 01:04
Paikkakunta: Vantaa

Re: Gothic font 1810

Viesti Kirjoittaja JaskaS » 10.09.2020 21:18

Om någon wet något hinder emot Joh. Lacmans, som någon tid följt med Arméen, tilltänkta ägtenskap med Pigan Catharina Wallius, anmäle han sådant inom 3 månader hos Curam gerens i Pielisjärwi Socken.

If anyone knows about any obstacles against the intended marriage, he should inform it within 3 months at Curam gerens ("vice pastor") in Pielisjärvi.

:) Jaska

P.S. Corrected misinterpretation. Thanks to Lena A.
:) J.
Viimeksi muokannut JaskaS, 10.09.2020 22:56. Yhteensä muokattu 1 kertaa.

LenaA
Viestit: 61
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Re: Gothic font 1810

Viesti Kirjoittaja LenaA » 10.09.2020 21:35

I think it says "curam gerens".

http://fho.sls.fi/uppslagsord/8536/curam-gerens/

Lena A

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Arcobaleno
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Re: Gothic font 1810

Viesti Kirjoittaja Arcobaleno » 11.09.2020 17:15

JaskaS, ЛенаА, thank you so much for your answers!
I would like to ask, were these ads in the Newspapers given to all couples who wanted to get married? Or were such texts made only for certain couples?

And what does "följt med Arméen" mean ? Does this mean that Johan was at war? Or did he follow the army with a civilian profession?
I will help you to read Russian text.
You don't have to pay for it. In return, I will ask you to decipher for me the text is in Swedish. I have many ancestors in Finland and I need help in reading old texts in Swedish. We can do a barter.
Contact me!

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JaskaS
Viestit: 1868
Liittynyt: 03.11.2006 01:04
Paikkakunta: Vantaa

Re: Gothic font 1810

Viesti Kirjoittaja JaskaS » 11.09.2020 18:10

Normal procedure was to announce three times in home parish church of bride (as surely in this case) and groom, if anyone had something against the intended marriage. For some reason that wasn't possible for Johan Lackman, maybe due to his involvement with the army. Not at all a common way.
No idea what was his profession. As we know the war itself was over in September previous year.

:) Jaska

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Arcobaleno
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Re: Gothic font 1810

Viesti Kirjoittaja Arcobaleno » 11.09.2020 18:37

JaskaS kirjoitti:
11.09.2020 18:10
Normal procedure was to announce three times in home parish church of bride (as surely in this case) and groom, if anyone had something against the intended marriage. For some reason that wasn't possible for Johan Lackman, maybe due to his involvement with the army. Not at all a common way.
I don't understand, was Johan and Catharina's marriage announced once or three times?

I was hoping that this ad would contain more information about Carin Wallius, since for more than 5 years I have been trying to find out whose daughter she is... but I haven't found anything yet...

JaskaS kirjoitti:
11.09.2020 18:10
No idea what was his profession.
I don't know how in 1810, but in later years Johan Lackman was a tailor.
I will help you to read Russian text.
You don't have to pay for it. In return, I will ask you to decipher for me the text is in Swedish. I have many ancestors in Finland and I need help in reading old texts in Swedish. We can do a barter.
Contact me!

tuulacu
Viestit: 446
Liittynyt: 07.09.2014 17:23

Re: Gothic font 1810

Viesti Kirjoittaja tuulacu » 11.09.2020 19:18

Arcobaleno, give us details:
- have you found their marriage?
- where are they, at earliest, in the confession books, give a link
- what is Carin's birth year, given then?

Wallius/Waljus/Walius is a rather common family name in Pielisjärvi, found in many villages, also with a V.

Tuula K

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Arcobaleno
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Re: Gothic font 1810

Viesti Kirjoittaja Arcobaleno » 11.09.2020 20:14

tuulacu, I'm glad to hear from you ))
tuulacu kirjoitti:
11.09.2020 19:18
have you found their marriage?
Yes, I found their marriage:
http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=7599553
The topmost entry on the right side.

tuulacu kirjoitti:
11.09.2020 19:18
- where are they, at earliest, in the confession books, give a link
This is the earliest record where I found mention of Carin Wallius:
http://digihakemisto.appspot.com/edit?k ... ay2=117108
Entry at the top of the sheet.

The year of birth of Carin Wallius is listed in all documents as 1788. None of the documents contain the exact date of birth of Carin. And also, I haven't seen her patronymic anywhere.

In addition, there is also this entry about Carin Wallius:
http://digihakemisto.appspot.com/edit?k ... ay2=117108
The most recent entry on the sheet.
But there is no date of birth, and it is not clear whether it is the same Carin or another.

In addition, I have written out all the girls with this name and surname who were born in Pielisjarvi and the surrounding area. And I tracked the fate of every girl. All of these girls either married or died as children.
This data is in the attached file (I marked the same people with the same color).
This left only one Carin, which was born in 1777. But the difference in dates is 11 years...
I understand that there are inaccuracies in dates... but is it possible to make a mistake in 11 years?

Carin Wallius.png
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tuulacu kirjoitti:
11.09.2020 19:18
Wallius/Waljus/Walius is a rather common family name in Pielisjärvi, found in many villages, also with a V.
Oh, yes, I noticed that! )))
I will help you to read Russian text.
You don't have to pay for it. In return, I will ask you to decipher for me the text is in Swedish. I have many ancestors in Finland and I need help in reading old texts in Swedish. We can do a barter.
Contact me!

tuulacu
Viestit: 446
Liittynyt: 07.09.2014 17:23

Re: Gothic font 1810

Viesti Kirjoittaja tuulacu » 11.09.2020 21:10

You have really done your best to find Carin. I hope one of us can find you more details.
(I will try tomorrow morning; I am not very good in the evenings...) There are many good information diggers in this group!

http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=7597183 - on that page with the solitary Carin at the end, there is something written at the end of the row, but what? number 735? 135? plus that information on her coming from St. Petersburg.
If this Carin is the same, she must have returned home in wartime or before the war 1808-09.

In the marriage information, the place is anyhow Lieksa.

Tuula K

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JaskaS
Viestit: 1868
Liittynyt: 03.11.2006 01:04
Paikkakunta: Vantaa

Re: Gothic font 1810

Viesti Kirjoittaja JaskaS » 11.09.2020 22:10

tuulacu kirjoitti:
11.09.2020 21:10
http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=7597183 - on that page with the solitary Carin at the end, there is something written at the end of the row, but what? number 735? 135? plus that information on her coming from St. Petersburg.
At least there are communion dates for 1800. This time better seen from:
https://www.sukuhistoria.fi/sshy/kirjat ... 31/171.htm
If the requested Carin's birth year was 1788, she had been too young to attend communion in 1800.

:) Jaska

tuulacu
Viestit: 446
Liittynyt: 07.09.2014 17:23

Re: Gothic font 1810

Viesti Kirjoittaja tuulacu » 12.09.2020 09:52

This is tough. Jos joku keksii Carinin tulosuunnan, suomeksikin voi laittaa!
Some ideas:

- if Carin was "piga" when she married, she was not a daughter of Wallius families on farms (this is mostly true if you were piga) but a girl living on her own. And that would point to the older Carin, born in 1777 (and the birth years DO change sometimes). This Carin's father Klockaren Israel died in 1783 and her mother in 1788. This would mean she maybe followed a relative? Elder brother Aron (retired corporal) married Carin Mattsdr in 1791 and moved from Lieksa to Pankajärvi before July 1798, when daughter Elisabeth was born. Family in CB 1781-90 when Israel dies http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=7596657 Aron is crossed over in the "age book" (Ikäkirja) of 1781-1790 http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=7596949 is not found in Pankajärvi either. Did he go to St. Petersburg, and Carin followed with him? Unfortunately it is very difficult to trace anyone coming from St. Petersburg so early, at the beginning of the 19th century.

- Lieksa Carins in Kuoion läänin henkikirja 1810, farm number 23: in Anders Wallius family, another in Eric Wallius' family http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=380006
- Lieksa Carins in 1811, http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=32293168 farm number 10 piga Carin (no family name), farm 23 Anders: "sönderbräcklig" Carin, farm 23 Eric: daughter? Carin, in 28: pigan Cajsa, in 32 pigan Carin, in 41 pigan Carin. So many Carins and jsut in Lieksa...

Arcobaleno, where do they go later on, and have they got any children, their names? Sometimes the names of children can give a hint.

Tuula K

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Arcobaleno
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Paikkakunta: Pskov, Russia

Re: Gothic font 1810

Viesti Kirjoittaja Arcobaleno » 12.09.2020 21:05

JaskaS kirjoitti:
11.09.2020 22:10
If the requested Carin's birth year was 1788, she had been too young to attend communion in 1800.
Yes, of course... in the event that 1788 is not an erroneous year for some reason.

tuulacu kirjoitti:
12.09.2020 09:52
And that would point to the older Carin, born in 1777 (and the birth years DO change sometimes)
If Karin 1777 is "correct", then it turns out that she gave birth to my great....grandmother Anna Stina at the age of 49 (in 1826). I'm a little doubtful ... although, of course, this age of the mother is also possible.
In addition, if Karin 1777 is the same, then it turns out that she died at the age of 87. I do not know if there were such centenarians in Finland at that time...

tuulacu kirjoitti:
12.09.2020 09:52
Elder brother Aron (retired corporal) married Carin Mattsdr in 1791 and moved from Lieksa to Pankajärvi before July 1798, when daughter Elisabeth was born. Family in CB 1781-90 when Israel dies http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=7596657 Aron is crossed over in the "age book" (Ikäkirja) of 1781-1790 http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=7596949 is not found in Pankajärvi either.
Aron Vallius is recorded here:
http://digihakemisto.appspot.com/edit?k ... ay2=117107
but there is not a single mark about confession. Why is Aron Wallius recorded there?...

tuulacu kirjoitti:
12.09.2020 09:52
- Lieksa Carins in Kuoion läänin henkikirja 1810, farm number 23: in Anders Wallius family, another in Eric Wallius' family http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=380006
- Lieksa Carins in 1811, http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=32293168 farm number 10 piga Carin (no family name), farm 23 Anders: "sönderbräcklig" Carin, farm 23 Eric: daughter? Carin, in 28: pigan Cajsa, in 32 pigan Carin, in 41 pigan Carin. So many Carins and jsut in Lieksa...
I can't even imagine how you can confirm or deny the "correctness " of these Carins.

tuulacu kirjoitti:
12.09.2020 09:52
where do they go later on, and have they got any children, their names? Sometimes the names of children can give a hint.
Johan and Carin lived in Lieksa and they had children: Anna Stina (my great...grandmother), Erik, Anders and Samuel. The documents are here:
https://www.geni.com/people/Catharina-W ... tab/source

In 1800, a child is born to a certain Carin Wallius in Pielisjarvi (this child died soon after).
http://hiski.genealogia.fi/hiski/g1xd8p ... etut+10688
I think that in this case the mother is Carin (1777), because the names of this child (Jöran Israel) correspond to the names of the grandfather and father Carin Wallius 1777.
If Carin (1777) lived in Pielisjarvi at this time, it must be recorded in the rippikirja books, but I do not find it there, except for this incomprehensible entry, where Carin Wallius is recorded as having come from Petersburg.
I have not been able to trace the fate of Carin (1777). I didn't find her marriage or her death. She just disappeared...
Viimeksi muokannut Arcobaleno, 13.09.2020 16:25. Yhteensä muokattu 1 kertaa.
I will help you to read Russian text.
You don't have to pay for it. In return, I will ask you to decipher for me the text is in Swedish. I have many ancestors in Finland and I need help in reading old texts in Swedish. We can do a barter.
Contact me!

tuulacu
Viestit: 446
Liittynyt: 07.09.2014 17:23

Re: Gothic font 1810

Viesti Kirjoittaja tuulacu » 13.09.2020 06:40

If Carin is Israel's daughter, some more info on brothers:

I managed to find Georg-Jöran as Klockare (like his father Israel) in the books of Eno http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=6540289 and Aron is found from 1807 on as jägare (soldier) Aron Starr/Wallius in Eno inhyses http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=6540301. - This still leaves the possibility that Aron was somewhere with family between the years 1795-1807. The same years would be valuable on Carin, too.

Tuula K

TapaniKoo
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Re: Gothic font 1810

Viesti Kirjoittaja TapaniKoo » 13.09.2020 20:56

Carin Wallius s. 8.8.1777 on mainittu Pielisjärven seurakunnan ikäkirjassa 1781-1790 ja samoin hänen siskonsa Valpuri Israelintytär Wallius, s. 2.3.1773 Lieksa. Digi 334: http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=7596978
Mitä tapahtui Walborg Pellikan jäätyä leskeksi 1783? Digi 14 rk 1781-1790 Klockare bohlet: http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=75966
Pappi kirjoitti Walborg Pellikan kohdalle: "afwikit orten" eli on poistunut paikkakunnalta tammikuun 1785 jälkeen. Tuolloin hänen tyttärensä Walborg oli 12-vuotias ja tytär Carin oli 7-vuotias. Muuttiko Walborg ja tyttäret Walborg ja Carin esimerkiksi Enoon? Myöhemmin Walborg Pellikka palasi takaisin Lieksaan ja kuoli siellä 44 vuoden ikäisenä 16.12.1789. Missä olivat tuolloin hänen tyttärensä, olivatko Lieksassa? Walborg Wallia (17 v) näyttäisi päässeen 25.12.1790 mennessä ripille. Digi 14 rk: http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=7596657

Joku Carin Wallius tuli Pietarista 1799 lopussa Lieksaan. Joku Carin Wallius sai Lieksassa 15.10.1800 pojan ja antoi tälle etunimet Jöran Israel. Poika kuoli pian syntymänsä jälkeen. Joku 26-vuotiaaksi mainittu Carin Wallius sai Lieksassa 11.11.1810 tyttären, jolle tuli etunimi Carin. Kirkonkirjoista ainut johtolanka on 1810 kummien nimet: Juho Kontio ja Anna Tuppurainen. Nimien avulla pitäisi yrittää löytää Carin Walliuksen sijainti rippikirjassa.

Mitä tapahtui Walborg Israelintytär Walliukselle? Voidaanko hänet jotenkin yhdistää vuonna 1833 Pietarissa 60 vuoden ikäisenä kuolleeseen Walborg Wall -nimiseen henkilöön, jolla oli kolme erilaista patronyymia Hiskin mukaan. Hän oli Isaacintytär, Johanintytär ja Henrikintytär. Hiski, kastettu: 1.12.1821 4.12.1821 Staden (Kutsk. Alexand. Michelson) Q.pig. Walb. Isacs:dr Wall Alexand. (oä. +). Kuolinajasta laskettuna tämä Walborg Wall on syntynyt 1773.

Pielisjärveltä ei löydy kirkonkirjoissa olevien puutteellisten tietojen perusteella Johan Lackmanille puolisoksi muita Carin Walliuksia kuin Israelintytär, joka syntyi 1777 ja joka tuli Pietarista Lieksaan 1799.

tuulacu
Viestit: 446
Liittynyt: 07.09.2014 17:23

Re: Gothic font 1810

Viesti Kirjoittaja tuulacu » 14.09.2020 06:28

I am translating Tapani's comments in English, as Arcobaleno is writing through Google translator and Finnish does not come out very well.
Avustan vähän, koska tiedän Arcobalenon käyttävän google-kääntäjää englanti-venäjä - ja suomihan ei tuossa kääntäjässä hyvin taivu.

Carin Wallius s. 8.8.1777 on mainittu Pielisjärven seurakunnan ikäkirjassa 1781-1790 ja samoin hänen siskonsa Valpuri Israelintytär Wallius, s. 2.3.1773 Lieksa. Digi 334: http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=7596978
- Carin Wallius is mentioned in Ikäkirja, Age book, 1781-1790 and so is her sisteri Valpuri Israelintytär.

Mitä tapahtui Walborg Pellikan jäätyä leskeksi 1783? Digi 14 rk 1781-1790 Klockare bohlet: http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=75966
Pappi kirjoitti Walborg Pellikan kohdalle: "afwikit orten" eli on poistunut paikkakunnalta tammikuun 1785 jälkeen. Tuolloin hänen tyttärensä Walborg oli 12-vuotias ja tytär Carin oli 7-vuotias. Muuttiko Walborg ja tyttäret Walborg ja Carin esimerkiksi Enoon? Myöhemmin Walborg Pellikka palasi takaisin Lieksaan ja kuoli siellä 44 vuoden ikäisenä 16.12.1789. Missä olivat tuolloin hänen tyttärensä, olivatko Lieksassa? Walborg Wallia (17 v) näyttäisi päässeen 25.12.1790 mennessä ripille. Digi 14 rk: http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=7596657
- What happened to Walborg Pellikka after she became widow? The priest wrote a note "afwikit orten", left the parish, after January 1785. Her daughter Walborg was 12 and daughter Carin 7 then. Did Walborg and daughters maybe move to Eno? Later on, Walborg Pellikka returned to Lieksa and died there at the age of 44 years in 17.12.1789. Where were her daughters then, were they in Lieksa? Walborg Wallia (17 years) has passed the communion by the date of 25.12.1790.

Joku Carin Wallius tuli Pietarista 1799 lopussa Lieksaan. Joku Carin Wallius sai Lieksassa 15.10.1800 pojan ja antoi tälle etunimet Jöran Israel. Poika kuoli pian syntymänsä jälkeen. Joku 26-vuotiaaksi mainittu Carin Wallius sai Lieksassa 11.11.1810 tyttären, jolle tuli etunimi Carin. Kirkonkirjoista ainut johtolanka on 1810 kummien nimet: Juho Kontio ja Anna Tuppurainen. Nimien avulla pitäisi yrittää löytää Carin Walliuksen sijainti rippikirjassa.
- There is one Carin Wallius that came from St. Petersburg at the end of 1799 to Lieksa. One Carin Wallius got a son in Lieksa on 15.10.1800 and gave him the name Jöran Israel. The son died soon after birth. One Carin Wallius, marked 26 years old, got a daughter in Lieksa 11.11.1810 by name Carin. From the church books the only clue is godparents: Juho Kontio and Anna Tuppurainen. These names could hint where to find Carin Wallius in the Communion Book.

Mitä tapahtui Walborg Israelintytär Walliukselle? Voidaanko hänet jotenkin yhdistää vuonna 1833 Pietarissa 60 vuoden ikäisenä kuolleeseen Walborg Wall -nimiseen henkilöön, jolla oli kolme erilaista patronyymia Hiskin mukaan. Hän oli Isaacintytär, Johanintytär ja Henrikintytär. Hiski, kastettu: 1.12.1821 4.12.1821 Staden (Kutsk. Alexand. Michelson) Q.pig. Walb. Isacs:dr Wall Alexand. (oä. +). Kuolinajasta laskettuna tämä Walborg Wall on syntynyt 1773.
- What happened to Walborg Israelsdotter Wallius? Can she be somehow connected with the Walborg Wall that died in St. Petersburg in 1833 at the age of 60? She had three different patronyms according to HisKi. She was Isaac's daughter, Johan's daughter and Henrik's daughter. HisKi, christenings: 1.12.1821 4.12.1821 Staden (Kutsk. Alexand. Michelson) Q-pig. Walb. Isacs:dr Alexand. (oä. ?). Counted from the death age this Walborg Wall was born in 1773.

Pielisjärveltä ei löydy kirkonkirjoissa olevien puutteellisten tietojen perusteella Johan Lackmanille puolisoksi muita Carin Walliuksia kuin Israelintytär, joka syntyi 1777 ja joka tuli Pietarista Lieksaan 1799.
- The Pielisjärvi books do not, because of missing information, give a precise answer to the question who was Johan Lackman's wife but the only choice left is Carin Wallius, Israel's daughter, born 1777, and came back from St. Petersburg in 1799.

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